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	<title>Comments on: The Real Problem with Law Teaching Fellowships</title>
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		<title>By: andy</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/comment-page-1/#comment-225949</link>
		<dc:creator>andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 08:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/archives/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/#comment-225949</guid>
		<description>i think a finely targeted VAP program can have benefits far beyond those suggested here.  that is, if a school is interested in developing a scholar in a particular field and that school&#039;s faculty  are willing to mentor VAPs, i can easily see how that would be useful.

i got an LLM and established a wonderful relationship with the dean of my program, and, but for the LLM, i could not imagine myself even thinking of entering academia.  i learned how to write and also learned how to be a &#039;professional&#039; from him.   of course, perhaps most VAP programs are just a source of cheap labor and nothing more.  i have no firm basis to suggest one way or another, but I do believe an LLM/vap program can potentially be good for aspiring scholars (but, again, what do I know?).  

all that being said, as someone who is currently engaged in the practice of law, i imagine strong legal experience (and especially a targeted VAP program) will  be against a candidate -- my understanding is that most schools abhor candidates who actually understand how the law affects the real world.   that is, if someone actually understands the practice of law (not to say *I* understand the ins and the outs), I imagine most hiring committees would be extremely inimical to such a candidate.  instead, a candidate who can offer worthless (but interesting!) &quot;law and...&quot; scholarship will be preferred to a candidate who can add something  to the world besides talking points to sophisticated ivy league circles.   

in short, the problem mr. madison&#039;s post hits on goes beyond the simple question of hiring junior adjuncts, but goes towards the fundamental mission of the law school itself:  if a school is to take on a VAP, what is the goal?  is it to find substitutes for professors who offer no real-world experience and who write useless scholarship?  or is it to help cultivate an academic culture that values a connection to the real world?  to the extent the program serves the latter goal, I believe a VAP program can be an integral part of a law school, and I believe mr. madison&#039;s remarks are off-base.  to the extent that a VAP program does not serve that purpose, i believe mr. madison&#039;s comments are spot-on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think a finely targeted VAP program can have benefits far beyond those suggested here.  that is, if a school is interested in developing a scholar in a particular field and that school&#8217;s faculty  are willing to mentor VAPs, i can easily see how that would be useful.</p>
<p>i got an LLM and established a wonderful relationship with the dean of my program, and, but for the LLM, i could not imagine myself even thinking of entering academia.  i learned how to write and also learned how to be a &#8216;professional&#8217; from him.   of course, perhaps most VAP programs are just a source of cheap labor and nothing more.  i have no firm basis to suggest one way or another, but I do believe an LLM/vap program can potentially be good for aspiring scholars (but, again, what do I know?).  </p>
<p>all that being said, as someone who is currently engaged in the practice of law, i imagine strong legal experience (and especially a targeted VAP program) will  be against a candidate &#8212; my understanding is that most schools abhor candidates who actually understand how the law affects the real world.   that is, if someone actually understands the practice of law (not to say *I* understand the ins and the outs), I imagine most hiring committees would be extremely inimical to such a candidate.  instead, a candidate who can offer worthless (but interesting!) &#8220;law and&#8230;&#8221; scholarship will be preferred to a candidate who can add something  to the world besides talking points to sophisticated ivy league circles.   </p>
<p>in short, the problem mr. madison&#8217;s post hits on goes beyond the simple question of hiring junior adjuncts, but goes towards the fundamental mission of the law school itself:  if a school is to take on a VAP, what is the goal?  is it to find substitutes for professors who offer no real-world experience and who write useless scholarship?  or is it to help cultivate an academic culture that values a connection to the real world?  to the extent the program serves the latter goal, I believe a VAP program can be an integral part of a law school, and I believe mr. madison&#8217;s remarks are off-base.  to the extent that a VAP program does not serve that purpose, i believe mr. madison&#8217;s comments are spot-on.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/comment-page-1/#comment-225929</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/archives/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/#comment-225929</guid>
		<description>To my mind another problem with many VAP/Fellowship programs is that they are only one year and so do not give enough time to people to do what they are supposedly meant to do.  It would be impossible for someone to take such a position, write a publishable paper (let alone publish it!), and go on the market all in one year, even if she were not teaching at the same time.  A two-year program can allow for that.  A fair number of fellowships now are for two years, but those that are not will be of strong use only to a pretty select group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To my mind another problem with many VAP/Fellowship programs is that they are only one year and so do not give enough time to people to do what they are supposedly meant to do.  It would be impossible for someone to take such a position, write a publishable paper (let alone publish it!), and go on the market all in one year, even if she were not teaching at the same time.  A two-year program can allow for that.  A fair number of fellowships now are for two years, but those that are not will be of strong use only to a pretty select group.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Risch</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/comment-page-1/#comment-225900</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Risch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/archives/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/#comment-225900</guid>
		<description>&quot;That is especially true for candidates who didn’t have the &#039;future law professor&#039; look about them in law school, and who therefore probably don’t have former professors who can speak on their behalf.&quot;

I would add that it is also important for those who have been out of law school for a while - memories fade over time, so new connections, support, input, references, etc. are important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That is especially true for candidates who didn’t have the &#8216;future law professor&#8217; look about them in law school, and who therefore probably don’t have former professors who can speak on their behalf.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would add that it is also important for those who have been out of law school for a while &#8211; memories fade over time, so new connections, support, input, references, etc. are important.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark McKenna</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/comment-page-1/#comment-225806</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark McKenna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/archives/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/#comment-225806</guid>
		<description>I agree with much of what you&#039;ve written, Mike.  I will add only one thing - and it&#039;s just my own view.  I think the number of VAP programs has now gotten sufficiently large that they don&#039;t have the same resume value they once did.  As you note, most of the people getting VAP&#039;s have the type of credentials that would have made them likely to get a teaching job a few years back.  And I don&#039;t think that, as between candidate A (who has excellent credentials, a published article and a VAP) and candidate B (similar excellent credentials and a published article, but no VAP), the VAP position actually does much work for the candidate.  

Assuming you&#039;re in the pool of &quot;legitimate&quot; candidates in the first place, I think there are only 2 things that distinguish a candidate: (1) the quality of the candidate&#039;s paper and his or her ability to engage in real, substantive discussion about the topic; and (2) references.

A VAP position could help a candidate with both of those things, at least indirectly.  If the program really does incubate scholars, then it may improve someone&#039;s chances of writing a good paper.  Speaking for myself, there was a real transition period learning how scholars write and talk (how to be, as Mike says, &quot;the ball&quot;).  A VAP position could conceivably aid that process - but I only say &quot;could conceivably&quot; because I have seen several candidates on the market who have had VAP positions who still clearly haven&#039;t figured out academic writing.  And, in a VAP program in which faculty really are involved with the fellows, one could really benefit from developing relationships with scholars in one&#039;s fields.  That is especially true for candidates who didn&#039;t have the &quot;future law professor&quot; look about them in law school, and who therefore probably don&#039;t have former professors who can speak on their behalf.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with much of what you&#8217;ve written, Mike.  I will add only one thing &#8211; and it&#8217;s just my own view.  I think the number of VAP programs has now gotten sufficiently large that they don&#8217;t have the same resume value they once did.  As you note, most of the people getting VAP&#8217;s have the type of credentials that would have made them likely to get a teaching job a few years back.  And I don&#8217;t think that, as between candidate A (who has excellent credentials, a published article and a VAP) and candidate B (similar excellent credentials and a published article, but no VAP), the VAP position actually does much work for the candidate.  </p>
<p>Assuming you&#8217;re in the pool of &#8220;legitimate&#8221; candidates in the first place, I think there are only 2 things that distinguish a candidate: (1) the quality of the candidate&#8217;s paper and his or her ability to engage in real, substantive discussion about the topic; and (2) references.</p>
<p>A VAP position could help a candidate with both of those things, at least indirectly.  If the program really does incubate scholars, then it may improve someone&#8217;s chances of writing a good paper.  Speaking for myself, there was a real transition period learning how scholars write and talk (how to be, as Mike says, &#8220;the ball&#8221;).  A VAP position could conceivably aid that process &#8211; but I only say &#8220;could conceivably&#8221; because I have seen several candidates on the market who have had VAP positions who still clearly haven&#8217;t figured out academic writing.  And, in a VAP program in which faculty really are involved with the fellows, one could really benefit from developing relationships with scholars in one&#8217;s fields.  That is especially true for candidates who didn&#8217;t have the &#8220;future law professor&#8221; look about them in law school, and who therefore probably don&#8217;t have former professors who can speak on their behalf.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Sag</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/comment-page-1/#comment-225804</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Sag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/archives/2007/12/05/the-real-problem-with-law-teaching-fellowships/#comment-225804</guid>
		<description>As a former Northwestern VAP, I have nothing but praise for the program. Adopting Mike&#039;s terminology: a VAP position gives you a chance to (1) practice being the ball and (2) credibly signal your commitment to being the ball. Both are distinct advantages on the market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former Northwestern VAP, I have nothing but praise for the program. Adopting Mike&#8217;s terminology: a VAP position gives you a chance to (1) practice being the ball and (2) credibly signal your commitment to being the ball. Both are distinct advantages on the market.</p>
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