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	<title>Comments on: Some Musings About Possible Ways To Improve Law Reviews And Law Schools Simultaneously</title>
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	<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/</link>
	<description>a blog about law, tech, culture, and related things</description>
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		<title>By: Supremacy Claus</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-247256</link>
		<dc:creator>Supremacy Claus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-247256</guid>
		<description>Open a professional journal on bridge engineering, on gynecological cancer surgery. The articles have been selected, criticized and revised by engineering or med students. At school, they spend 80 hours a week memorizing a language they have never heard. They have had hours of experience designing or examining patients. In their spare time, they edit professional journals.

This contrasts with law students. They have never even written a demand letter in anger. They have never suffered. They cannot even relate to the troubled parties mocked in the articles.

That sound OK to you?

That Dean at Harvard Law, the Devil, what&#039;s his name? He came up with the idea. &quot;Why not get the students to do this work? I can spend more time with my good friend, Johnny Walker.&quot;

Student run law reviews. Brilliant idea from the mind of an alcoholic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Open a professional journal on bridge engineering, on gynecological cancer surgery. The articles have been selected, criticized and revised by engineering or med students. At school, they spend 80 hours a week memorizing a language they have never heard. They have had hours of experience designing or examining patients. In their spare time, they edit professional journals.</p>
<p>This contrasts with law students. They have never even written a demand letter in anger. They have never suffered. They cannot even relate to the troubled parties mocked in the articles.</p>
<p>That sound OK to you?</p>
<p>That Dean at Harvard Law, the Devil, what&#8217;s his name? He came up with the idea. &#8220;Why not get the students to do this work? I can spend more time with my good friend, Johnny Walker.&#8221;</p>
<p>Student run law reviews. Brilliant idea from the mind of an alcoholic.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Markel</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246554</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Markel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246554</guid>
		<description>Ann, to be clear, I wasn&#039;t uncritically endorsing the gate-keeping function some students have, just pointing out that it may be difficult to dislodge them from fulfilling that function.

And even if you can get smaller productive schools to expand the issues, the pragmatic point is that productive prawfs with clout and high placement records (or those who aspire to join them) will oppose the switch. I&#039;m not saying the normative vision is inherently bad; I&#039;m saying it&#039;s likely to be outside the feasible choice set.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann, to be clear, I wasn&#8217;t uncritically endorsing the gate-keeping function some students have, just pointing out that it may be difficult to dislodge them from fulfilling that function.</p>
<p>And even if you can get smaller productive schools to expand the issues, the pragmatic point is that productive prawfs with clout and high placement records (or those who aspire to join them) will oppose the switch. I&#8217;m not saying the normative vision is inherently bad; I&#8217;m saying it&#8217;s likely to be outside the feasible choice set.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246552</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246552</guid>
		<description>So a system in which law students who generally do not have much detailed analytical sophistication in scholarly subject areas have a powerful role in  &quot;gatekeeping&quot; which law professors succeed or fail in the profession should be preserved for the benefit of the people who like it that way? Phooey.

Also, the smaller schools with productive faculties can increase the number of students working on  their law journals, and hire some &quot;professionals&quot; as editors. Most law schools have very bright fairly recent graduates who would love part time editing work they could do out of their homes as they raised their children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So a system in which law students who generally do not have much detailed analytical sophistication in scholarly subject areas have a powerful role in  &#8220;gatekeeping&#8221; which law professors succeed or fail in the profession should be preserved for the benefit of the people who like it that way? Phooey.</p>
<p>Also, the smaller schools with productive faculties can increase the number of students working on  their law journals, and hire some &#8220;professionals&#8221; as editors. Most law schools have very bright fairly recent graduates who would love part time editing work they could do out of their homes as they raised their children.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Markel</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246527</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Markel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246527</guid>
		<description>One other thing to contemplate, if this idea were taken seriously, is the transition costs. Students at certain journals, particularly the top ones, might be upset to lose their gatekeeping role; it could be taken away by administrative fiat at most places, but actually Harvard Law Review is an independent and separate organization that I believe is not at all dependent on Elena&#039;s graces. (Bluebook royalties are empowering!) So if you couldn&#039;t solve the collective action problem on the side of the students, you&#039;ll also face some opposition by those prawfs who while not at fancy law schools are able to write for fancy law reviews every now and then. And since those scholars are the ones who often wield clout at many law schools, it&#039;s unlikely the collective action problem of the faculty will be solved. So, my sense is that it&#039;s an interesting thought experiment with mixed results in theory and virtually no practical shot at being implemented for the reasons I&#039;ve mentioned here and earlier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other thing to contemplate, if this idea were taken seriously, is the transition costs. Students at certain journals, particularly the top ones, might be upset to lose their gatekeeping role; it could be taken away by administrative fiat at most places, but actually Harvard Law Review is an independent and separate organization that I believe is not at all dependent on Elena&#8217;s graces. (Bluebook royalties are empowering!) So if you couldn&#8217;t solve the collective action problem on the side of the students, you&#8217;ll also face some opposition by those prawfs who while not at fancy law schools are able to write for fancy law reviews every now and then. And since those scholars are the ones who often wield clout at many law schools, it&#8217;s unlikely the collective action problem of the faculty will be solved. So, my sense is that it&#8217;s an interesting thought experiment with mixed results in theory and virtually no practical shot at being implemented for the reasons I&#8217;ve mentioned here and earlier.</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy Rapoport</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246478</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy Rapoport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246478</guid>
		<description>Ann&#039;s idea is especially intriguing because it eliminates some of the snob factor issues about where one has published (see also Al Brophy&#039;s post on this, at http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/a-focus-on-quality-of-scholarship-rather-than-placement/).  Would the students be able to keep up with the pace of writing on the faculty?  It&#039;s hard to say--I could see a real difficulty where the student body is relatively small and the output by the faculty is high.  What would happen if the scholarly output by the faculty were published in one of two types of journals:  a peer-reviewed journal, run by the faculty itself, and a law-student-run journal, run by the students?  I&#039;m not sure how this type of bifurcated publication opportunity would play out, but I&#039;m so intrigued by Ann&#039;s idea that I want to mull it over a bit more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann&#8217;s idea is especially intriguing because it eliminates some of the snob factor issues about where one has published (see also Al Brophy&#8217;s post on this, at <a href="http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/a-focus-on-quality-of-scholarship-rather-than-placement/)" rel="nofollow" >http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/a-focus-on-quality-of-scholarship-rather-than-placement/)</a>.  Would the students be able to keep up with the pace of writing on the faculty?  It&#8217;s hard to say&#8211;I could see a real difficulty where the student body is relatively small and the output by the faculty is high.  What would happen if the scholarly output by the faculty were published in one of two types of journals:  a peer-reviewed journal, run by the faculty itself, and a law-student-run journal, run by the students?  I&#8217;m not sure how this type of bifurcated publication opportunity would play out, but I&#8217;m so intrigued by Ann&#8217;s idea that I want to mull it over a bit more.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard Wasserman</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246476</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard Wasserman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246476</guid>
		<description>Even if on-line publication answers the volume question, is there any selection criteria, what is it, and who decides? Does anything that a member of the faculty writes automatically get published? Right now, everything a member of a faculty writes is eligible for (and encouraged to go in) the &quot;Name Law School&quot; Legal Studies Research Series. Is that also what will happen with &quot;Name&quot; Law Review?

And if publishing becomes that automatic, what does that do to the respect for legal scholarship as an academic  discipline, which already is looked down upon by other fields because of the student-run, non-peer-reveiwed nature of journals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if on-line publication answers the volume question, is there any selection criteria, what is it, and who decides? Does anything that a member of the faculty writes automatically get published? Right now, everything a member of a faculty writes is eligible for (and encouraged to go in) the &#8220;Name Law School&#8221; Legal Studies Research Series. Is that also what will happen with &#8220;Name&#8221; Law Review?</p>
<p>And if publishing becomes that automatic, what does that do to the respect for legal scholarship as an academic  discipline, which already is looked down upon by other fields because of the student-run, non-peer-reveiwed nature of journals.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Rapp</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246474</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Rapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246474</guid>
		<description>Great thought experiment!  On the plus side, this would reveal that some schools which rate (relatively) highly on &quot;academic reputation&quot; don&#039;t really produce that much high quality work.  Academic &quot;reputation&quot; sometimes seems far more closely linked to things like overall university prestige and trips to the final four than to the actual work being produced by scholars at a school.

On the down side, however, this would undercut a way that faculty members have at less &quot;prestigious&quot; schools to get their work noticed.  Placement is a silly proxy for the quality of a scholarly work, but at the same time, when faculty members at less well known schools &quot;place highly&quot; their work gets noticed.  Presuming that good scholarship will rise to the top without the &#039;placement effect&#039; may be overly optimistic.

The other potential downside -- maybe not all of the things we do to make scholarship palatable to student editors and secure higher placement are all bad.  Maybe guaranteed (or near-guaranteed) publication in home journals (given the lack of competition, since no one else could submit piece?) would lead some faculty members to submit sloppy, poorly thought out work.  Sure, that work gets published now, but it suffers a &quot;placement penalty&quot;.  I would add that maybe legal scholars have a responsibility to write work that has _some_ application (or at least accessibility) to judges and members of the bar.  Perhaps student editors serve as a good proxy for an audience many in legal academia would prefer to ignore.

One final possible downside -- what would happen to job candidates?  Where would they publish?  If practicing lawyers couldn&#039;t place pieces, would faculty recruiting go back to the old days where law school / undergrad prestige was all that mattered, and performance could not be measured?  Would this create a further incentive for would-be law profs to sign on to fellowships at &quot;prestige&quot; schools (for journal publication benefits), even if those fellowships might not be the best use of a year?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great thought experiment!  On the plus side, this would reveal that some schools which rate (relatively) highly on &#8220;academic reputation&#8221; don&#8217;t really produce that much high quality work.  Academic &#8220;reputation&#8221; sometimes seems far more closely linked to things like overall university prestige and trips to the final four than to the actual work being produced by scholars at a school.</p>
<p>On the down side, however, this would undercut a way that faculty members have at less &#8220;prestigious&#8221; schools to get their work noticed.  Placement is a silly proxy for the quality of a scholarly work, but at the same time, when faculty members at less well known schools &#8220;place highly&#8221; their work gets noticed.  Presuming that good scholarship will rise to the top without the &#8216;placement effect&#8217; may be overly optimistic.</p>
<p>The other potential downside &#8212; maybe not all of the things we do to make scholarship palatable to student editors and secure higher placement are all bad.  Maybe guaranteed (or near-guaranteed) publication in home journals (given the lack of competition, since no one else could submit piece?) would lead some faculty members to submit sloppy, poorly thought out work.  Sure, that work gets published now, but it suffers a &#8220;placement penalty&#8221;.  I would add that maybe legal scholars have a responsibility to write work that has _some_ application (or at least accessibility) to judges and members of the bar.  Perhaps student editors serve as a good proxy for an audience many in legal academia would prefer to ignore.</p>
<p>One final possible downside &#8212; what would happen to job candidates?  Where would they publish?  If practicing lawyers couldn&#8217;t place pieces, would faculty recruiting go back to the old days where law school / undergrad prestige was all that mattered, and performance could not be measured?  Would this create a further incentive for would-be law profs to sign on to fellowships at &#8220;prestige&#8221; schools (for journal publication benefits), even if those fellowships might not be the best use of a year?</p>
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		<title>By: Deven</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246469</link>
		<dc:creator>Deven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246469</guid>
		<description>Howard

Sorry I missed that you brought up the SSRN idea already but I agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard</p>
<p>Sorry I missed that you brought up the SSRN idea already but I agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Klick</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246467</link>
		<dc:creator>Klick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246467</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Dan, but almost all of my work goes in refereed journals as it is.  Though I recognize peer-review isn&#039;t a perfect system, it would mitigate a number of problems (mentioned here as well as others), no?  

Still don&#039;t think I&#039;ve heard a good argument for why law school folks, virtually alone in the academy, can&#039;t spend time refereeing like everyone else on campus (I&#039;m sitting on 4 reports [2 econ, 1 l&amp;e, 1 sociology] to be submitted as we speak).  If the worry is that peer review enforces too much inertia in scholarship, isn&#039;t that offset now by the wide availability of working papers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Dan, but almost all of my work goes in refereed journals as it is.  Though I recognize peer-review isn&#8217;t a perfect system, it would mitigate a number of problems (mentioned here as well as others), no?  </p>
<p>Still don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve heard a good argument for why law school folks, virtually alone in the academy, can&#8217;t spend time refereeing like everyone else on campus (I&#8217;m sitting on 4 reports [2 econ, 1 l&amp;e, 1 sociology] to be submitted as we speak).  If the worry is that peer review enforces too much inertia in scholarship, isn&#8217;t that offset now by the wide availability of working papers?</p>
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		<title>By: Deven</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2008/04/08/some-musings-about-possible-ways-to-improve-law-reviews-and-law-schools-simultaneously/comment-page-1/#comment-246465</link>
		<dc:creator>Deven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1363#comment-246465</guid>
		<description>Dan

What about the electronic question? That seems to address the number of issues question. In addition, if law professors were more responsible for their cites (as we required on Yale Journal of Law &amp; the Humanities and most other academic disciplines do so too), the strain on students would go down. Of course the law review experience may diminish but finding more cite checkers to increase law review is possible. Now I am not sure what would happen to specialty journals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan</p>
<p>What about the electronic question? That seems to address the number of issues question. In addition, if law professors were more responsible for their cites (as we required on Yale Journal of Law &amp; the Humanities and most other academic disciplines do so too), the strain on students would go down. Of course the law review experience may diminish but finding more cite checkers to increase law review is possible. Now I am not sure what would happen to specialty journals.</p>
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