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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Kindle 2 can read books aloud. And Kindle 2 is not paying anyone for audio rights.&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/</link>
	<description>a blog about law, tech, culture, and related things</description>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272947</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272947</guid>
		<description>Peter - I referenced plays with respect to the fact that an infringement can occur without fixation of the infringing performance. I didn&#039;t mean to suggest that the Kindle 2 makes a public performance. 

This issue is interesting because it pushes on what it means to make a copy. As a technical matter the Kindle 2 doesn&#039;t make an audio copy, but if it can read the book out loud over and over in exactly the same way, it enables something copy like, anyway. I really don&#039;t think I&#039;m suggesting a &quot;new exclusive right.&quot; I&#039;m suggesting that some judges might find this infringing of pre-existing rights, if there is market substitution.

Bill -
I agree that the market effects in terms of lost sales might not be huge.  But it might be bigger than you think. Or maybe my friends and I are just weird, because we do it a fair amount, with children&#039;s books and &quot;book club&quot; books.

I really think accusing the Author&#039;s Guild of being ready to &quot;hale parents into court for reading aloud to their kids&quot; is a really unhelpful exaggeration.  And maybe the Author&#039;s Guild is wrong on this issue, but I don&#039;t think they deserve to be falsely (as far as I can tell) accused of hating on blind people.  These people are writers. Maybe they are puppets of the publishers, I don&#039;t know. But if they are wrong, I think it&#039;s enough just to point that out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter &#8211; I referenced plays with respect to the fact that an infringement can occur without fixation of the infringing performance. I didn&#8217;t mean to suggest that the Kindle 2 makes a public performance. </p>
<p>This issue is interesting because it pushes on what it means to make a copy. As a technical matter the Kindle 2 doesn&#8217;t make an audio copy, but if it can read the book out loud over and over in exactly the same way, it enables something copy like, anyway. I really don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m suggesting a &#8220;new exclusive right.&#8221; I&#8217;m suggesting that some judges might find this infringing of pre-existing rights, if there is market substitution.</p>
<p>Bill -<br />
I agree that the market effects in terms of lost sales might not be huge.  But it might be bigger than you think. Or maybe my friends and I are just weird, because we do it a fair amount, with children&#8217;s books and &#8220;book club&#8221; books.</p>
<p>I really think accusing the Author&#8217;s Guild of being ready to &#8220;hale parents into court for reading aloud to their kids&#8221; is a really unhelpful exaggeration.  And maybe the Author&#8217;s Guild is wrong on this issue, but I don&#8217;t think they deserve to be falsely (as far as I can tell) accused of hating on blind people.  These people are writers. Maybe they are puppets of the publishers, I don&#8217;t know. But if they are wrong, I think it&#8217;s enough just to point that out.</p>
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		<title>By: William McGeveran</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272917</link>
		<dc:creator>William McGeveran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272917</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Mark, Rebecca, Peter  etc. -- no infringement here that I see.

Also, from a pure policy point of view, isn&#039;t it the case that publishers (or I suppose authors) lose out only if someone who bought a book for Kindle would instead have purchased both a print *and* an audio version of that book?  My guess is that very few people ever do so.  Similar arguments arose re: Google Book Search, of course.

Finally, Ann, I love you and your blogging, but having been accused of &quot;inflammatory&quot; remarks once or twice yourself, do you really think EFF&#039;s rhetoric is &quot;corrosive&quot;? Exaggerated, sure.  But sometimes isn&#039;t that the best way to make a point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Mark, Rebecca, Peter  etc. &#8212; no infringement here that I see.</p>
<p>Also, from a pure policy point of view, isn&#8217;t it the case that publishers (or I suppose authors) lose out only if someone who bought a book for Kindle would instead have purchased both a print *and* an audio version of that book?  My guess is that very few people ever do so.  Similar arguments arose re: Google Book Search, of course.</p>
<p>Finally, Ann, I love you and your blogging, but having been accused of &#8220;inflammatory&#8221; remarks once or twice yourself, do you really think EFF&#8217;s rhetoric is &#8220;corrosive&#8221;? Exaggerated, sure.  But sometimes isn&#8217;t that the best way to make a point?</p>
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		<title>By: Pter Hirtle</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272901</link>
		<dc:creator>Pter Hirtle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272901</guid>
		<description>So Ann asks if I would feel differently if the Kindle did a good job of reading books.  I have confidence that in time the software will get to the point that the computer-generated audio will be very high quality (if not quite the quality that an actor could bring to reading the book).  But I don&#039;t have a problem with that.  Authors have the right to license someone to make audio copies of the work.  And there is the section 121 exemption that allows audio copies to be made for the visually impaired.  But I don&#039;t see that the Kindle makes any copies, so it is not in the same ballpark.  And it is not like a play, because it is not a public performance.

What you are really asking is whether we should give authors a new exclusive right to privately perform works via technological means.  That seems like a very slippery slope on which to enter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Ann asks if I would feel differently if the Kindle did a good job of reading books.  I have confidence that in time the software will get to the point that the computer-generated audio will be very high quality (if not quite the quality that an actor could bring to reading the book).  But I don&#8217;t have a problem with that.  Authors have the right to license someone to make audio copies of the work.  And there is the section 121 exemption that allows audio copies to be made for the visually impaired.  But I don&#8217;t see that the Kindle makes any copies, so it is not in the same ballpark.  And it is not like a play, because it is not a public performance.</p>
<p>What you are really asking is whether we should give authors a new exclusive right to privately perform works via technological means.  That seems like a very slippery slope on which to enter.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272865</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272865</guid>
		<description>I think Blount&#039;s argument is that Amazon.com is trying to fleece authors. 

I have no idea how much of the $30 cover price you cite actually goes to the book&#039;s author, but based on some figures I&#039;ve seen, it may be a dollar or less. I have no idea whatsoever how much audio books might add to a book&#039;s revenue stream, and how much of that gets to the author.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Blount&#8217;s argument is that Amazon.com is trying to fleece authors. </p>
<p>I have no idea how much of the $30 cover price you cite actually goes to the book&#8217;s author, but based on some figures I&#8217;ve seen, it may be a dollar or less. I have no idea whatsoever how much audio books might add to a book&#8217;s revenue stream, and how much of that gets to the author.</p>
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		<title>By: joe miklovic</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272862</link>
		<dc:creator>joe miklovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272862</guid>
		<description>Mr. Blount needs to get a new job. It seems to me like he’s trying to find a new way to fleece the consumer. As a consumer, I’m tired of getting ripped off by the publishing industry. $30 for a new book? Give me a break. I can’t afford that kind of hobby…it would cost me $900 a year if it wasn’t for the public library. Everyone wants to be a millionaire overnight, especially at the cost of the working slobs and the consumers. Give me a break Mr. Blount.
-joe miklovic</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Blount needs to get a new job. It seems to me like he’s trying to find a new way to fleece the consumer. As a consumer, I’m tired of getting ripped off by the publishing industry. $30 for a new book? Give me a break. I can’t afford that kind of hobby…it would cost me $900 a year if it wasn’t for the public library. Everyone wants to be a millionaire overnight, especially at the cost of the working slobs and the consumers. Give me a break Mr. Blount.<br />
-joe miklovic</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272860</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272860</guid>
		<description>Dave! - I already said I haven&#039;t used the Kindle 2 audio feature, see above.

Also, no one in the thread thinks there is a pre-recorded audio version of the work on the Kindle 2.

Even if the ability to play the book in audio form over and over is not found to be fixation, not every judge requires something to be fixed to be infringing.  Non-permissively performing a copyrighted play over and over without fixing any particular performance might well be held infringing, depending on the other circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave! &#8211; I already said I haven&#8217;t used the Kindle 2 audio feature, see above.</p>
<p>Also, no one in the thread thinks there is a pre-recorded audio version of the work on the Kindle 2.</p>
<p>Even if the ability to play the book in audio form over and over is not found to be fixation, not every judge requires something to be fixed to be infringing.  Non-permissively performing a copyrighted play over and over without fixing any particular performance might well be held infringing, depending on the other circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave!</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272858</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272858</guid>
		<description>Has anyone bitching about this actually *used* the Kindle feature?? I don&#039;t think so. Because I have. It&#039;s not going to stop audio-book lovers from buying audio books. Not by any stretch. But even if it was an amazing, melodic voice, I still don&#039;t think there is a copyright issue...

To be clear: there is not an audio version of the work on the Kindle. The machine does a real time text-to-speech each time it&#039;s read. Unless you&#039;re renting yourself out with your Kindle to do public readings for an admission charge, I don&#039;t think having a device read aloud to you is a derivative work.

I think the Author&#039;s Guild should take a tip from Neil Gaiman (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/02/quick-argument-summary.html).

[WORDPRESS HASHCASH] The poster sent us &#039;0 which is not a hashcash value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone bitching about this actually *used* the Kindle feature?? I don&#8217;t think so. Because I have. It&#8217;s not going to stop audio-book lovers from buying audio books. Not by any stretch. But even if it was an amazing, melodic voice, I still don&#8217;t think there is a copyright issue&#8230;</p>
<p>To be clear: there is not an audio version of the work on the Kindle. The machine does a real time text-to-speech each time it&#8217;s read. Unless you&#8217;re renting yourself out with your Kindle to do public readings for an admission charge, I don&#8217;t think having a device read aloud to you is a derivative work.</p>
<p>I think the Author&#8217;s Guild should take a tip from Neil Gaiman (<a href="http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/02/quick-argument-summary.html)" rel="nofollow">http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/02/quick-argument-summary.html)</a>.</p>
<p>[WORDPRESS HASHCASH] The poster sent us &#8216;0 which is not a hashcash value.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272853</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272853</guid>
		<description>Would any of you think any differently about the issue if the Kindle 2 did a really, really good job of reading e-books out loud, over and over, as many times as the consumer wanted?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would any of you think any differently about the issue if the Kindle 2 did a really, really good job of reading e-books out loud, over and over, as many times as the consumer wanted?</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272851</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272851</guid>
		<description>Maybe the best solution is just to let the market solve - publishers can compensate for the loss of audio book sales by charging more for e-books.  But then we will all pay the audio premium whether we want to listen to the Kindle 2 read to us or not.

I understand that the Kindle 2 doesn&#039;t give a &quot;public&quot; performance, but I&#039;m not so sure there isn&#039;t a kind of reproduction being made that is more than ephemeral. Section 121 calls recordings for the blind &quot;reproductions&quot; rather than derivative works, for whatever that is worth.  And if you can replay the book in audio form over and over on a Kindle 2, I think some judges would find fixation.

Not having heard a Kindle 2 read a book out loud, I can&#039;t judge how good a job it does, but I do have a blind friend with a text reader and hers reads surprisingly mellifluously. 

I have to admit that if it worked well. I&#039;d love to have a Kindle 2 or similar product that could read books to me during long drives that are  not available in audio book form. But I also have to admit that I have purchased quite a few books in both audio book and textual form over the years, so I think there would be lost revenue streams for some authors.  

It would be an infringing act to record somebody else&#039;s book without permission and sell the CD,  and the Author&#039;s Guild seems to feel this is analogous. I&#039;m not sure I buy that, but something here makes me uncomfortable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the best solution is just to let the market solve &#8211; publishers can compensate for the loss of audio book sales by charging more for e-books.  But then we will all pay the audio premium whether we want to listen to the Kindle 2 read to us or not.</p>
<p>I understand that the Kindle 2 doesn&#8217;t give a &#8220;public&#8221; performance, but I&#8217;m not so sure there isn&#8217;t a kind of reproduction being made that is more than ephemeral. Section 121 calls recordings for the blind &#8220;reproductions&#8221; rather than derivative works, for whatever that is worth.  And if you can replay the book in audio form over and over on a Kindle 2, I think some judges would find fixation.</p>
<p>Not having heard a Kindle 2 read a book out loud, I can&#8217;t judge how good a job it does, but I do have a blind friend with a text reader and hers reads surprisingly mellifluously. </p>
<p>I have to admit that if it worked well. I&#8217;d love to have a Kindle 2 or similar product that could read books to me during long drives that are  not available in audio book form. But I also have to admit that I have purchased quite a few books in both audio book and textual form over the years, so I think there would be lost revenue streams for some authors.  </p>
<p>It would be an infringing act to record somebody else&#8217;s book without permission and sell the CD,  and the Author&#8217;s Guild seems to feel this is analogous. I&#8217;m not sure I buy that, but something here makes me uncomfortable.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Hirtle</title>
		<link>http://madisonian.net/2009/02/25/kindle-2-can-read-books-aloud-and-kindle-2-is-not-paying-anyone-for-audio-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-272828</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Hirtle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madisonian.net/?p=1923#comment-272828</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Rebecca on this one.  Peter Jaszi has a great &lt;a href=&quot;http://chaucer.umuc.edu/blogcip/collectanea/2009/02/copyright_bullies_1_first_in_a.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;posting&lt;/a&gt; in which he asks what exclusive rights are infringed by the Kindle?  Unless there is some non-transient audio copy made as part of the text to speech process, it doesn&#039;t look like reproduction.  No fixation, so I don&#039;t see distribution.  Can you have a derivative work without fixation?  And listening privately doesn&#039;t seem like a public performance.

Let&#039;s not go along with copyright owners when they suggest that they have more rights than the law allows.  Their monopoly is broad enough as is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Rebecca on this one.  Peter Jaszi has a great <a href="http://chaucer.umuc.edu/blogcip/collectanea/2009/02/copyright_bullies_1_first_in_a.html" rel="nofollow">posting</a> in which he asks what exclusive rights are infringed by the Kindle?  Unless there is some non-transient audio copy made as part of the text to speech process, it doesn&#8217;t look like reproduction.  No fixation, so I don&#8217;t see distribution.  Can you have a derivative work without fixation?  And listening privately doesn&#8217;t seem like a public performance.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s not go along with copyright owners when they suggest that they have more rights than the law allows.  Their monopoly is broad enough as is.</p>
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